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Sat Sep 20 15:58:53 CEST 2008

more about macros and MetaML

More than I can process, but there was some talk about macros on LuT
recently.

http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2987

Some things that struck me:

    Laurence Tratt:

    The Template Haskell school (for want of a better phrase - it
    might better be called the MetaML school) of compile-time
    meta-programming inverts the traditional Lisp notion of
    macros. Put very simply, in Lisp macros are special things that
    are explicitly identified, but macro calls aren't (they're
    normal-looking function calls that happen to do special stuff at
    compile-time); in Template Haskell, macros are normal functions
    (that just so happen to return ASTs) but macro calls are
    explicitly identified. This means that you can do anything you
    would normally do with functions, so 'macros' are first-class in
    such an approach.

Interesting, since this is one of the things that I consider a feature
in Staapl: heavily metaprogrammed source code can be read as if it is
single-stage.

    naasking:

    Staging is strongly-typed runtime compilation. So you can replace
    a interpreted parser expression built from closures with a
    compiler using staging, and get a specialized parser that executes
    at full speed with no interpretive overhead.

I'm probably missing a lot of nuances trying to compare Staapl with
MetaML by ignoring the type system..

    Frank Atanassow:

    The problem with LISP-style macros is that they force the user to
    solve those problems over again. But, if the interpreter/compiler
    writer has already done that, why should they have to? Why can't
    they reuse that functionality?  To put it another way, the problem
    is that LISP doesn't sufficiently abstract from the way programs
    are represented. It forces you to work with surface syntax,
    represented as trees of atoms, when in fact a program has a great
    deal more structure.

Now, hygienic macros do solve quite a lot of problems here, since at
least the identifiers are handled appropriately, but since the "great
deal more structure" in lisp is hidden behind the effect of a macro,
there is no way to check that structure before executing a macro with
the "wrong parameters" and generating a "run-time error at compile
time": you can't statically check macro code, and have to wait until
it is used in a tranformation for it to fail.


This leads to the following references:

About macros:
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/classic/message9532.html

    Peter Van Roy:

    Higher-order programming is more expressive. Macros are
    syntactically more concise and give more efficient code. (Note
    that expressiveness and verbosity only have a tenuous connection!)

In Staapl, expressiveness is traded for efficiency.  The thing that
glues HOFs and macros together seems to be a good partial evaluator.
I.e. higher order traversal function applications replaced with static
'structured programming' code.

    Peter Van Roy:

    My definition of expressive power has nothing to do with Turing
    equivalence. It's something like this: adding a new language
    construct increases the expressive power of a language if it can
    only be expressed in the original language with nonlocal
    changes. For example, adding exceptions to the declarative model
    of chapter 2 in CTM increases the expressive power, since the only
    way to do the same thing in the declarative model is to add
    boolean variables and checks to all procedures (checks like: if
    error then return immediately). This was proved in the 1970s! (All
    of CTM is structured in this way, with computation models becoming
    more and more expressive, in the precise sense defined above. See
    Appendix D of CTM for a brief summary.)


There's some more talk about quasiquotation being the really important
idea, not s-expressions.  Frank Atanassow talks about macros just
being notational convenience, not really extending expressiveness
according to PVR's definition.


Some threads about MetaML:
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/classic/message8778.html

    Frank Atanassow:

    One of the limitations of MetaML, incidentally, is that its
    representation of programs is too abstract. Although you can
    reflect a program---turn it into a value---the only thing you do
    with it is compose it with other reflected programs, and evaluate
    it. You can't, for example, rewrite parts of a reflected
    program. This is sufficient to turn an interpreter into a
    compiler, but not into an optimizing compiler.


http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2438
Need to read that again..

But it does bring me back to the idea that the combinator approach in
Staapl makes things really a lot simpler.. But what is lost?



http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~sheard/staged.html
Tim Sheard: A Taxonomy of meta-programming systems.

Quasiquotation is defined as a different way to write syntax trees
built from algebraic data types, instead of writing the trees by
manual construction.




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